Many of you asked for more details about my hour-long conversation with Fred, a self-described “die-hard Trump guy,” who was outfitted in a Trump hat, shirt and giant belt buckle. The conversation started over my truck, which is, hands down, the greatest automobile I have ever owned. I love it. It was clear to me that Fred loved his truck as much as I did mine. Both were big Fords.
As I read this I realize that politics is also about beliefs. Powerful is he or she who makes you believe so hard in something that you would vote for him who would sell your future, and the future of your children, and of your children’s children to the highest bidder, and who would stop at nothing to hold on to the power that you have conceded, even as to steal your freedom.
Belief is how prisoners stay in cages long after they have been unlocked and opened.
But unfortunately Biden is not a master manipulator snake oil salesman demagogue, because that’s what it takes to make you believe the things that these people believe without question. Unbelievable.
Love Mackinac Island. I think all cities and towns should have areas where there are no cars. I know, I know. We have a street here that is closed to cars. It is my favorite part of the city.
One thing I don’t understand is why the big negative about Biden. Did your buddy say why? What is your theory? I struggle with this. It is something I don’t understand.
Common ground then is as simple as a truck. It’s often the obvious. You, Steve, took that to better questions - expressing an idea by asking questions: would Fred want the non-Surgeon General Vivek [yes on a mission to help not mix them up! A promise made to my South Indian friend, and to myself] to lead the Marines? Into battle? But what if Fred had said “better than Biden” as he did about whether he, Fred, would consider a Dem or a not-Trump? Why not Biden? I’m so curious to know why Fred wouldn’t vote for Biden or if it’s just the “D” by his political affiliation.
Thank you for pictures of the beauty of Michigan where your description of a diversity of people I’m guessing were visitors. What if they stayed?
Will the fever break Steve? I am afraid that I don’t have the same belief in that as you. I did at first. I was certain that people would ultimately see Trump for what he is. But the last election told me otherwise. Even though he did not win, a lot of people wanted him to. A lot of those same people stormed the Capitol and would probably do so again if they thought it would put him back in The Oval Office. I pray that Justice will he served. But we will never be the same. This country will never be the same and this fever didn’t begin with Trump. He is a manifestation of it. There are many others who have a list for power and who think America belongs to “certain Americans”. Even though I don’t believe the fever will break, I am hoping it will. Change is what I’m praying for and hope is what I have.
Steve, did you ask him if he believed the election was stolen? Or that Dems drink the blood of children or are pedos who traffick children? Or if Dems are communists? Because even if they don’t embrace all of Q, many of the reactionaries, whom the media still calls conservatives, believe at least part of the crazy. And that “lock her up” is performative? Why must a politician even say such a thing?
You may be able to have a civil conversation with a MAGA, even find common ground (your trucks), but I disagree heartily that this is a sign we will be all right. I’ve had similar conversations with MAGAs. But I wonder how he would have reacted if you said you were a democrat.
Nearly 20 years ago, before Obama, before Trump, my husband and I were traveling out West, in central Oregon to see the John Day Monument--those incredible painted hills. We were living in NYC and by chance our rental car had New York plates. Well, the first night we were there, someone tried to kick out both of our tail lights. The boot prints across both rear lights were the evidence. They were unsuccessful and we looked at the few other cars parked near us and none were touched. We hadn’t met anyone or told them who we were. We arrived too late for any conversations. I can only imagine what would have happened if then were now. This divide is deep and goes back years. I can’t be as sanguine about it as you. That he refuses to see Trump for the crook he is--as long as millions refuse to believe reality, that’s a problem.
To me, this is a multi tiered issue that must be addressed for a healthier country.
1. Ego maniacs sowed disinformation campaigns.
2. The media did not stop televising/spreading the disinformation. Profit before truth.
3. People bought into the propaganda.
I hope the fever will break. I’d love our younger generations to experience the sense of community I grew up in. We disagreed on political, for example, but remained respectful, honored the difference of opinion.
I love your thoughtful commentary, Steve, but—with love and respect—this read like one of those soft-ball interviews the political media just love to conduct with little clumps of Trump voters gathered in a coffee shop or a barbershop or at a county fair in Real Town, to “understand what Republican voters are thinking.” Not a single tough question. You seemed eager to find common ground but did you find it—beyond the ground your trucks were resting on?
Excellent commentary as always Steve. My first impulse is to say that Fred seems for more cognizant of the real issues dividing American’s than most in the MAGAverse. By that, I mean he isn’t delusional and doesn’t sound like a Qanan whack-job. No Jewish lasers from space, or outrageously simplistic and obtuse answers.
As for the George Floyd protests. There was destruction and looting. Yet, every movement is infiltrated by a violent and criminal element who will use the protests for their own selfish means. However, when you consider how many people peacefully protested vs. the violent element; it was mostly peaceful.
How many police died or were hospitalized because of the BLM protests? Zero, Yet, two federal employees were killed by the Boogaloo Boys in Oakland during a BLM protest. Additionally, Rittenhouse shot three people in Kenosha, killing two.
So was there personal and business damage by some in the mob? Yes! But it was right-wing militias that did the killing. The same occurred on J6th.
As the adage goes: “Every great cause starts as a movement; evolves into a business and then devolves into a racket!” I’ll leave it at that!
“I think it amplifies the urgency of dealing seriously with the inciters of the event, as opposed to the participants who certainly committed grave offenses that day, but shouldn't hang alone.” ---Fred
I agree, many of the participants on J6th were led astray by the inciters and enablers of the insurgency. That doesn’t excuse their behavior. And we all agree, they shouldn’t hang alone. Trump and 19 of his minions are being tried federally, and at the state level in GA, MI and AZ, so far. And although, a good number of the instigators on J6th, haven’t been indicted at the federal level, they are unindicted co-conspirators, who could be charged at any time.
As for why he believes that Biden wants to run against Trump, he’s confusing the media’s expert (usually wrong) analysis with the Biden administration’s. However, even if it were the case, it would be because Trump is almost as old, and has worse likability numbers than Biden. Not to mention, Biden beat Trump before. So there’s that!
As for Vivek? Fred gave the usual “non-answer,”answer! Maybe they should just say, he’s the least known of all the other MAGAlite candidates, and he doesn’t know enough about him to make an educated guess. Or he knows enough about the others to consider Vivek a more likable candidate. Who knows for sure, least of all Fred, apparently!
“Fred was a nice man, like tens of millions of our neighbors, family members, friends and colleagues who support a cause that is immoral, unworthy and un-American. How should we think about them? With anger? Hatred? Venom? Love?”--Steve Schmidt
Yes, Fred sounds nice. And when you ask how we should think of him and the other 74 million MAGA followers? Only three words come to mind: Not at all!...:)
I have been a free subscriber to your Substack for quite awhile, yet I’ve always wished I could comment on some of your essays. So, today I became a paid subscriber solely for the purpose of responding and asking you some questions about this one.
1. You mentioned that Fred said, “Yes, but Biden doesn’t run”. How did you respond to that? I’d be interested to hear more about how you think Biden’s policies are having an impact on the country…the economy, culturally and internationally. I also read Heather Cox Richardson and she is very positive about his policies. You concentrate a lot on the Republican candidates, but what about Biden? Personally, I think he is doing a pretty good job and many indicators support that. His age is a factor, but hey, give the guy a break.
2. Fred’s “words of wisdom” near the end puzzled me. I’m not sure Biden has come right out and said that he wants Trump as his opponent in 2024. This is the first I’ve heard that. Where did that come from?
I enjoy your take on things, but being a lifelong liberal, I don’t always agree with your political views. But, I have many friends like you. We enjoy each others company despite that one aspect. In fact, I often agree with many of my more moderate Republican friends. I think that politics is more than emotional. It so often reflects our individual take on what we consider the common good and American values. I just happen to lean toward the more left side of the center line. Unfortunately, the Republican Party today, as reflected by Trump’s values, is taking the country far right of that centerline toward fascism.
I go back to an incident that happened to me in 2014 while living in Oregon, I’m a veteran of the Vietnam War, so I parked in a Veteran’s parking spot at a store. I had an Obama bumper sticker on the car. A guy in a truck behind me leaned out of his window and asked, “are you really a veteran with that Obama sticker”, I walked away without saying anything, but I look back on that moment and wish I had turned to him and told him that I fought for the freedom to choose who I support. And many died for that freedom. What right did he have to question my choice?
I know I should probably have that same attitude with Trump supporters, but supporting a criminal and con man who really does not care about the country, is a bridge too far.
Excerpt: "There were gay couples holding hands, bi-racial couples, kids, teenagers, and all sorts of different types of people walking around and having fun. I felt the same way about them as I did Fred." I wonder, Steve, if Fred would be as accepting and open-minded? Honestly, I doubt it. The Freds of our country are heterosexist whites-only folk. Let there be no doubt.
I have friends who are retired U.S. Marine Corps officers, some graduates of the U.S. Naval Academy. My family has served our Military since the American Revolutionary War. To me, Fred is an anti-patriot. His is blind loyalty. He also is blind to the fact that Donald John Trump is an ENEMY of this country; a traitor. Yet, I also am aware how political 'loyalties" often fall along the lines of the officers' class and the non-com (enlisted) class. The disloyal belligerence of Trump supporters should be an awakening for the Freds of our society. The very fact that Donald Trump says he will lock up his opponents and those who have offended him is a shot across the bow, a shot so fierce and powerful that those Freds should be rethinking their choice of a leader. Or, simply stand down.
Sigh...Where to begin? Please answer this one question. I value your opinion, and I dread your answer. The question is this: Do you think with the "fever breaking" there will be violence - much more than seen on Jan 6?
I ask this because of facts you have quoted: "60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. 40% of Americans do not have $400 available for an emergency." And a quote today from Robert Reich: "3 multibillionaires now own more wealth than 90% of America- 291 million Americans. This is what oligarchy looks like." `Added to this, your opinion, that these disenfranchised masses, with their hopeless state of mind for themselves and their families futures, have developed a f*** you attitude toward the "other", a burn it to the ground - what do we have to lose? And this is now their "dogma, and it is unshakable", having lost all trust and belief in our government and institutions.
History does repeat itself. Is this not similar to the French revolution? I was reminded of that on Jan 6 when the insurrectionists erected a gallows for Pence.
There is a fever in our country. Sometimes it finally "breaks" - when the patient dies.
Perhaps Winston Churchill was wrong when he said: "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others." Perhaps we are learning that identity politics of all stripes poisons the well of tolerance and goodwill. When our political reality emphasizes how we are different and we seek power based on those differences, our democratic republic cannot stand. Where is the strength of the political force that pulls us together, rather than dividing us? We as a nation have created a Congress based on hatreds and gottchas, rather than one based on the Common Good. Will we ever learn?
This might seem like a non sequitur, but as a lifelong student of American history, especially the Civil War, its causes and aftermath, my personal conclusion is that much of what is in reality, an unbridgeable national divide can be traced to America's two great national sins. The first is the still inadequately addressed genocide of the native population. The other, more immediate, pressing and indisputable truth is that, initially, much of this country was built on a foundation of slavery and later, on a still existing, virulent racism. It would not be where it is, good and bad in their absence. Steve's cordial conversation with a fervent supporter of an irredeemable monster and his would-be, fascist successors notwithstanding, the "fever" he refers to will not "break" without a long overdue national reckoning that does not seem to be visible anywhere on the horizon.
While all this is exacerbated by social media, generational bigotry and the lies promoted by Rupert Murdoch's empire of neuro-carcinogenic bullshit, we wouldn't be in this quagmire without the abysmal failure of Reconstruction. Whether that was ever even a realistic possibility is a separate question.
You have shown that there is hope, but building on it will require all of us to stop the grade school shaming and name calling. How do you negotiate with people who think you think the are “libtards” or “repubpukes”?
Carole King nailed it when she sang “.... you can’t talk to a man, with a shotgun in his hand..... who don’t want to understand....”. So, what is our end game and what is keeping us from getting there? What are the basics we must conquer? I think you have begun to uncover how.... however, I am not sure about everyone getting a monster Ford pickup😁😁 thank you for your courage and enlightenment!!
Biden doesn’t pick the nominee. Republicans will do that. Where has Biden said that he wants Trump nominated?
As I read this I realize that politics is also about beliefs. Powerful is he or she who makes you believe so hard in something that you would vote for him who would sell your future, and the future of your children, and of your children’s children to the highest bidder, and who would stop at nothing to hold on to the power that you have conceded, even as to steal your freedom.
Belief is how prisoners stay in cages long after they have been unlocked and opened.
But unfortunately Biden is not a master manipulator snake oil salesman demagogue, because that’s what it takes to make you believe the things that these people believe without question. Unbelievable.
Love Mackinac Island. I think all cities and towns should have areas where there are no cars. I know, I know. We have a street here that is closed to cars. It is my favorite part of the city.
One thing I don’t understand is why the big negative about Biden. Did your buddy say why? What is your theory? I struggle with this. It is something I don’t understand.
Common ground then is as simple as a truck. It’s often the obvious. You, Steve, took that to better questions - expressing an idea by asking questions: would Fred want the non-Surgeon General Vivek [yes on a mission to help not mix them up! A promise made to my South Indian friend, and to myself] to lead the Marines? Into battle? But what if Fred had said “better than Biden” as he did about whether he, Fred, would consider a Dem or a not-Trump? Why not Biden? I’m so curious to know why Fred wouldn’t vote for Biden or if it’s just the “D” by his political affiliation.
Thank you for pictures of the beauty of Michigan where your description of a diversity of people I’m guessing were visitors. What if they stayed?
Travel on safely.
Will the fever break Steve? I am afraid that I don’t have the same belief in that as you. I did at first. I was certain that people would ultimately see Trump for what he is. But the last election told me otherwise. Even though he did not win, a lot of people wanted him to. A lot of those same people stormed the Capitol and would probably do so again if they thought it would put him back in The Oval Office. I pray that Justice will he served. But we will never be the same. This country will never be the same and this fever didn’t begin with Trump. He is a manifestation of it. There are many others who have a list for power and who think America belongs to “certain Americans”. Even though I don’t believe the fever will break, I am hoping it will. Change is what I’m praying for and hope is what I have.
Steve, did you ask him if he believed the election was stolen? Or that Dems drink the blood of children or are pedos who traffick children? Or if Dems are communists? Because even if they don’t embrace all of Q, many of the reactionaries, whom the media still calls conservatives, believe at least part of the crazy. And that “lock her up” is performative? Why must a politician even say such a thing?
You may be able to have a civil conversation with a MAGA, even find common ground (your trucks), but I disagree heartily that this is a sign we will be all right. I’ve had similar conversations with MAGAs. But I wonder how he would have reacted if you said you were a democrat.
Nearly 20 years ago, before Obama, before Trump, my husband and I were traveling out West, in central Oregon to see the John Day Monument--those incredible painted hills. We were living in NYC and by chance our rental car had New York plates. Well, the first night we were there, someone tried to kick out both of our tail lights. The boot prints across both rear lights were the evidence. They were unsuccessful and we looked at the few other cars parked near us and none were touched. We hadn’t met anyone or told them who we were. We arrived too late for any conversations. I can only imagine what would have happened if then were now. This divide is deep and goes back years. I can’t be as sanguine about it as you. That he refuses to see Trump for the crook he is--as long as millions refuse to believe reality, that’s a problem.
LOVE this article.
To me, this is a multi tiered issue that must be addressed for a healthier country.
1. Ego maniacs sowed disinformation campaigns.
2. The media did not stop televising/spreading the disinformation. Profit before truth.
3. People bought into the propaganda.
I hope the fever will break. I’d love our younger generations to experience the sense of community I grew up in. We disagreed on political, for example, but remained respectful, honored the difference of opinion.
I love your thoughtful commentary, Steve, but—with love and respect—this read like one of those soft-ball interviews the political media just love to conduct with little clumps of Trump voters gathered in a coffee shop or a barbershop or at a county fair in Real Town, to “understand what Republican voters are thinking.” Not a single tough question. You seemed eager to find common ground but did you find it—beyond the ground your trucks were resting on?
Excellent commentary as always Steve. My first impulse is to say that Fred seems for more cognizant of the real issues dividing American’s than most in the MAGAverse. By that, I mean he isn’t delusional and doesn’t sound like a Qanan whack-job. No Jewish lasers from space, or outrageously simplistic and obtuse answers.
As for the George Floyd protests. There was destruction and looting. Yet, every movement is infiltrated by a violent and criminal element who will use the protests for their own selfish means. However, when you consider how many people peacefully protested vs. the violent element; it was mostly peaceful.
How many police died or were hospitalized because of the BLM protests? Zero, Yet, two federal employees were killed by the Boogaloo Boys in Oakland during a BLM protest. Additionally, Rittenhouse shot three people in Kenosha, killing two.
So was there personal and business damage by some in the mob? Yes! But it was right-wing militias that did the killing. The same occurred on J6th.
As the adage goes: “Every great cause starts as a movement; evolves into a business and then devolves into a racket!” I’ll leave it at that!
“I think it amplifies the urgency of dealing seriously with the inciters of the event, as opposed to the participants who certainly committed grave offenses that day, but shouldn't hang alone.” ---Fred
I agree, many of the participants on J6th were led astray by the inciters and enablers of the insurgency. That doesn’t excuse their behavior. And we all agree, they shouldn’t hang alone. Trump and 19 of his minions are being tried federally, and at the state level in GA, MI and AZ, so far. And although, a good number of the instigators on J6th, haven’t been indicted at the federal level, they are unindicted co-conspirators, who could be charged at any time.
As for why he believes that Biden wants to run against Trump, he’s confusing the media’s expert (usually wrong) analysis with the Biden administration’s. However, even if it were the case, it would be because Trump is almost as old, and has worse likability numbers than Biden. Not to mention, Biden beat Trump before. So there’s that!
As for Vivek? Fred gave the usual “non-answer,”answer! Maybe they should just say, he’s the least known of all the other MAGAlite candidates, and he doesn’t know enough about him to make an educated guess. Or he knows enough about the others to consider Vivek a more likable candidate. Who knows for sure, least of all Fred, apparently!
“Fred was a nice man, like tens of millions of our neighbors, family members, friends and colleagues who support a cause that is immoral, unworthy and un-American. How should we think about them? With anger? Hatred? Venom? Love?”--Steve Schmidt
Yes, Fred sounds nice. And when you ask how we should think of him and the other 74 million MAGA followers? Only three words come to mind: Not at all!...:)
I'd say, "Where did you hear Biden wants Trump as nominee, Fox News?? Oh, never mind ..."
Steve,
I have been a free subscriber to your Substack for quite awhile, yet I’ve always wished I could comment on some of your essays. So, today I became a paid subscriber solely for the purpose of responding and asking you some questions about this one.
1. You mentioned that Fred said, “Yes, but Biden doesn’t run”. How did you respond to that? I’d be interested to hear more about how you think Biden’s policies are having an impact on the country…the economy, culturally and internationally. I also read Heather Cox Richardson and she is very positive about his policies. You concentrate a lot on the Republican candidates, but what about Biden? Personally, I think he is doing a pretty good job and many indicators support that. His age is a factor, but hey, give the guy a break.
2. Fred’s “words of wisdom” near the end puzzled me. I’m not sure Biden has come right out and said that he wants Trump as his opponent in 2024. This is the first I’ve heard that. Where did that come from?
I enjoy your take on things, but being a lifelong liberal, I don’t always agree with your political views. But, I have many friends like you. We enjoy each others company despite that one aspect. In fact, I often agree with many of my more moderate Republican friends. I think that politics is more than emotional. It so often reflects our individual take on what we consider the common good and American values. I just happen to lean toward the more left side of the center line. Unfortunately, the Republican Party today, as reflected by Trump’s values, is taking the country far right of that centerline toward fascism.
I go back to an incident that happened to me in 2014 while living in Oregon, I’m a veteran of the Vietnam War, so I parked in a Veteran’s parking spot at a store. I had an Obama bumper sticker on the car. A guy in a truck behind me leaned out of his window and asked, “are you really a veteran with that Obama sticker”, I walked away without saying anything, but I look back on that moment and wish I had turned to him and told him that I fought for the freedom to choose who I support. And many died for that freedom. What right did he have to question my choice?
I know I should probably have that same attitude with Trump supporters, but supporting a criminal and con man who really does not care about the country, is a bridge too far.
Best Regards and safe travels.
Excerpt: "There were gay couples holding hands, bi-racial couples, kids, teenagers, and all sorts of different types of people walking around and having fun. I felt the same way about them as I did Fred." I wonder, Steve, if Fred would be as accepting and open-minded? Honestly, I doubt it. The Freds of our country are heterosexist whites-only folk. Let there be no doubt.
I have friends who are retired U.S. Marine Corps officers, some graduates of the U.S. Naval Academy. My family has served our Military since the American Revolutionary War. To me, Fred is an anti-patriot. His is blind loyalty. He also is blind to the fact that Donald John Trump is an ENEMY of this country; a traitor. Yet, I also am aware how political 'loyalties" often fall along the lines of the officers' class and the non-com (enlisted) class. The disloyal belligerence of Trump supporters should be an awakening for the Freds of our society. The very fact that Donald Trump says he will lock up his opponents and those who have offended him is a shot across the bow, a shot so fierce and powerful that those Freds should be rethinking their choice of a leader. Or, simply stand down.
Sigh...Where to begin? Please answer this one question. I value your opinion, and I dread your answer. The question is this: Do you think with the "fever breaking" there will be violence - much more than seen on Jan 6?
I ask this because of facts you have quoted: "60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. 40% of Americans do not have $400 available for an emergency." And a quote today from Robert Reich: "3 multibillionaires now own more wealth than 90% of America- 291 million Americans. This is what oligarchy looks like." `Added to this, your opinion, that these disenfranchised masses, with their hopeless state of mind for themselves and their families futures, have developed a f*** you attitude toward the "other", a burn it to the ground - what do we have to lose? And this is now their "dogma, and it is unshakable", having lost all trust and belief in our government and institutions.
History does repeat itself. Is this not similar to the French revolution? I was reminded of that on Jan 6 when the insurrectionists erected a gallows for Pence.
There is a fever in our country. Sometimes it finally "breaks" - when the patient dies.
Perhaps Winston Churchill was wrong when he said: "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others." Perhaps we are learning that identity politics of all stripes poisons the well of tolerance and goodwill. When our political reality emphasizes how we are different and we seek power based on those differences, our democratic republic cannot stand. Where is the strength of the political force that pulls us together, rather than dividing us? We as a nation have created a Congress based on hatreds and gottchas, rather than one based on the Common Good. Will we ever learn?
This might seem like a non sequitur, but as a lifelong student of American history, especially the Civil War, its causes and aftermath, my personal conclusion is that much of what is in reality, an unbridgeable national divide can be traced to America's two great national sins. The first is the still inadequately addressed genocide of the native population. The other, more immediate, pressing and indisputable truth is that, initially, much of this country was built on a foundation of slavery and later, on a still existing, virulent racism. It would not be where it is, good and bad in their absence. Steve's cordial conversation with a fervent supporter of an irredeemable monster and his would-be, fascist successors notwithstanding, the "fever" he refers to will not "break" without a long overdue national reckoning that does not seem to be visible anywhere on the horizon.
While all this is exacerbated by social media, generational bigotry and the lies promoted by Rupert Murdoch's empire of neuro-carcinogenic bullshit, we wouldn't be in this quagmire without the abysmal failure of Reconstruction. Whether that was ever even a realistic possibility is a separate question.
Excellent!!
You have shown that there is hope, but building on it will require all of us to stop the grade school shaming and name calling. How do you negotiate with people who think you think the are “libtards” or “repubpukes”?
Carole King nailed it when she sang “.... you can’t talk to a man, with a shotgun in his hand..... who don’t want to understand....”. So, what is our end game and what is keeping us from getting there? What are the basics we must conquer? I think you have begun to uncover how.... however, I am not sure about everyone getting a monster Ford pickup😁😁 thank you for your courage and enlightenment!!