If President Biden refuses to debate Trump, no matter how legitimate his reasons, and no matter how well he states those reasons, voters will assume he is afraid to debate. This will help Trump and the Trumpists get away with their smears. I understand Frum's argument that Trump doesn't deserve the honor of a debate, and that much of the media will play a stupid and stupefying role if and when the debates take place, but based on Biden's performance as president and upon his recent State of the Union address, I think the debate will provide him with an absolutely necessary opportunity to demonstrate on live television that he has a positive vision for the country, and is mentally and physically fit to govern, while Trump HAS NOT and IS NOT.
Thank you. None of the "debates" are any more. And duel may even be more polite if it were like days of old w/ rules. This spectacle will be terrifying to watch. I think I'll skip it just as I will election night and the many weeks after of calls of voter fraud.
I agree with Mary Bullington 100%. As long as the debate rules include shutting off the mike of all participants when it's not their turn to speak or when they exceed the time allotted to speak. No audience in attendance for Trump to demagogue. And a strong moderator. My vote is for Lawrence O'Donnell. As much as he dislikes Trump, Lawrence is always in control and would be a fantastic and fair debate moderator.
“The networks want their show, but to give the challenger equal status on a TV stage would be a dire normalization of his attempted coup.” —David Frum
I beg to differ. The MSM and the Republican Party has normalized his attempted coup, stealing of top secret documents, while downplaying his illegal activities; giving respectability to the MAGA CULT, Fascism, and the white nationalist agenda.
So sorry David, that ship has sailed. It’s best to engage, and let Trump make an ass out of himself in front of 25 million people. It’s a risk for Biden, but one he must take if he is to prevail in November. And should Biden have refused to debate, one can only imagine the wild conspiracy theories that would metastasize. Biden is brain dead and Kamala is in charge. It wasn’t Clinton who killed Seth Rich, it was a coked up Hunter Biden, etc…
The fake internet news stories will be endless. iMHO…:)
He has to because Chump and crew will get unlimited mileage out of Biden not debating. The G.O.P (Ghastly Old Party) wants to nominate this buffoon, so you do what you have to.
Biden is a statesman ,Trump is a babbling idiot and that will become clear to all during this first debate ,he will not have the deplorables to cheer him on he will be held to the rules of the debate
if the debate is in the 8-9 pm hour ,sundowner syndrome will be apparent and if medicated it will increase his very obvious aphasia
Either way people will criticize Biden, but I have to support him in his decision to debate the fool. Sure it gives credence to the chump and may normalize his attempted coup. Biden has some zingers he's been storing up just in case the blithering trump forgets whose the boss. The magadonias have already made their minds up, so yes, just going to be a show.
It's a risk for Biden to debate Trump. But given how horribly Trump behaved in the 2020 debate, like a madman, constantly interrupting, I think he really discredited himself. His aggressiveness was I suppose designed to confuse Biden.. It did not. It made Trump look completely unhinged. Given that Biden won 6 million more votes than Trump in 2020, I surmise that the American people agreed. If Biden has slowed cognitively substantially, that might be revealed. But I still think that he will come off far saner than Trump.
Biden will have to say that Trump uses projection, and any accusation Trump uses is about himself, and say it about as calmly as one can - with pity. America is greater now than with Trump.
Biden can keep control of the military for 6 months after the election.
Control of the military for 6 months post election? I did not know this and if the election is lost to the Republicans we will need protection from the dictators and authoritarian rule that has been promised by them.
Trump says he will use the military to control the people that aren't loyal to Trump. That might mean against Americans like me. Six months would be a cooling down period, so maybe day one won't be too much of a shock. The 2025 group is very organized, and I believe they will be vicious in imposing their will.
This race shouldn't be close, but too many voters suffer from "Both Sides" mentality. They need to see both candidates side-by-side. Joe Biden needs to bring his SOTU game and expose the adjudicated rapist Trump as the seditious, Putin-loving, white supremacist, grifting kleptocrat that he is.
Frum does have a point. Biden should not give wanna be dictator Trump legitimacy by shaking his hand.
I was unable to read the article, but I agree with the premise, that by debating Trump, Biden is normalizing insurrection.
(Hell, I STILL think Trump is disqualified to run for president under 14.3 of our constitution. I don't let go of things easily I suppose.)
However, if Biden were to take that position and not debate Trump, he would be seen as a coward.
If Trump is the candidate for president - it disgusts to say so - then Biden should debate him.
Mr Biden gave a great State of the Union. Time to give a great debate performance. Hopefully the petulant and incorrigible behavior of Trump can be minimized but the rules and the moderator.
And hopefully the price of gas, eggs, and houses will decrease by the election.
Trump was a fake president with not a modicum of intelligence, decency, or self control. Biden needs to merely stand there and breathe; the idiot will display what a complete fool he is as he rants on….
I don’t agree with Frum. I think it’s time to put up or shut up for President Biden. If he’s got what it takes, he needs to show the country NOW! Biden’s decision to debate the pending First Felon is a good one.
Trump's followers will watch, thinking they will see Biden as a demented old man. The only way Biden can prove them wrong is to be there, next to Trump, showing the contrast in real time.
I believe Trump will back out of any and all debates. All he can do is sling mud, dirt, garbage, name call and be a clown. He has NO mind for facts, numbers, policies and governing!
I don’t think Biden could possibly prepare for the slime that Trump is going to throw at him—stuff about his personal and family life, stuff he won’t expect and he won’t react well because he’s a normal man unlike Trump
Biden has to do it. He MUST DEBATE. No matter what any rationale would possibly be, the public will believe Biden CANNOT debate because he is unable to handle it and therefore will lose votes he needs to win the election. If he keeps the pressure on and brings it to Trump on the daily, while Trump is sitting in the courtroom, when Trump stomps onto the debate stage, he will explode with all the shit we know he says every day.
15 million insane “military age men” crossing the border every 15 minutes!! From insane asylums!!
Executing the baby after birth!
And so much more!
And hopefully, he will glitch and short-circuit and treat everyone to a replay of “Reboooot GAHHH”. Replete with bulging eyes.
If Tapper asks about policy and internment camps and little items from the 2025 playlist, then the American public will have a glimpse of just WTF our lives will be like under Trump Version 2.
Biden has to debate. And he has to be well-prepped. And he needs to bring it.
I think it will go great (see SOTU and WHCD). Why should he release the audio or video when he already released the transcript and Hur has been grilled by Comer Fudd and Gym Jordan? And WWTD (see What Would Trump Do?). Trump didn’t release the classified documents! No doubt he released them to Vlad and MBS. Biden loves this shit. And Trump has glitched and short-circuited MANY times over the last three months (see REBOOOT GAHH, buiging eyes). It will be great.
Yeah, yeah. The Telegraph is just another echo chamber. This is Biden in a large crowd with Barack Obama commanding the attention. I can scour YouTube and find clips of REBOOOOT GAHHH and Trump drinking with both hands on the glass and shuffling down the ramp with a military escort and lurching forward in stance, et al. But here’s the thing. I’m voting for decency. And for democracy. And for compassion and empathy. And steadiness. And trying hard for the American public. I’m NOT voting for hate and revenge and cruelty and misogyny and xenophobia and fascism.
I don't think you really know what you are voting for other than a feeling of some political cult fealty. You seem to be well captured by your media feed algorithms. You speak in rhetorical Democrat media talking points.
We have to stop meeting like this. I feel the exact same way about YOU. One talking point follows another. And it’s DEMOCRATIC. I get that you’re trying to insult me. I’m not going to comment back to you anymore. It’s a waste of time.
Then why hide the audios and videos from the public? I do listen to the audios and videos of Trump's rallies because there is no abuse of power to prevent it. In terms of competency Joe Biden is identified by the leaders of his own party as being incompetent.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f--k things up" - Barack Obama
It is doubtful, given the clinical observations by experts and by those of us who have heard clips of trump speaking recently, that he is exhibiting rapid deterioration associated with signs of dementia. His lap dog surrogates cannot fill in for him, as they are now, skirting his gag order. He will most surely not appear for the debates.
It depends. If there are rules in place, and each has their time to talk with no interruptions, Biden will do great. But if it is like 2020, there's no way he can even make himself heard, let alone say anything of substance.
Biden’s campaign has stipulated that the other candidate’s mic be muted until his turn to speak and there will be no audience. Without the rich donors being there to jeer and cheer there will be no distractions and Trump won’t be able to interrupt Biden unless he’s literally screaming. If he does, Biden should walk off the stage.
Given the terms of the debate as outlined by Biden, I think it’s brilliant. No audience to feed TFG’s ego. BTW, TFG no longer stands for The Former Guy. It’s now The F***ing Grifter.
It’s early enough in the season to address any of Uncle Joe gaffs. I think Joe’s ready for him. And fence sitters may need a reminder of how awful TFG was and how scary the Project 2025 (or whatever it’s called) is. I think Trump is going to back out anyway.
I have a subscription to The Atlantic and I have read Frum’s other pieces. Technically he is correct. But it is a lawyerly response and just will not work as a way to convince the electorate. Given the way polling is going, there are a lot of voters who don’t care about anything Trump did in the past. It is sad, but true.
Unfortunately, I couldn't read the article because there is a pay wall and I'm not a subscriber to Atlantic. I agree that Biden should debate, because he's good at it. We can't let TFG and the media (I'm looking at you NY Times) drive the narrative about Biden's age and mental acuity. Biden blew TFG away in 2020 because TFG couldn't shut his gob, talked over Biden, bullied and bloviated. He. Can't. Help. Himself. He will do it again! I'm glad Joe tossed down the gauntlet. How we'll see if the orange wuss will show up because he's gotten his feefees hurt about some of the rules.He wants a big audience filled with his fans so he can turn a serious debate into a rally.
I can't get past The Atlantic's paywall, but I doubt David Frum could persuade me that there is a downside. Anything can go wrong, of course, and people concerned about orthodoxy are bothered by the pre-nomination timing. But guess what? We're on a burning boat steaming toward hell, and these are very unorthodox times in which it's gonna take a lot more than a debate to "normalize" anything.
If one wants to go by the book, assume innocent until proven guilty. Biden has done wrong since year one. All intraparty challenges were squashed. He needs to do something to change the polls. The event could be a genuine shitshow, just like all the other Trump faux debates, town halls, and such. The moderators would need to strictly control the mics. They must have the power to cut each candidate off. They must be able to have real-time fact-checking. Biden cannot run this campaign from his basement again. But these moderators need to be seasoned and thorough in their abilities to management a shitshow.
Although I agree with some here that Trump is a traitor, we still have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that 70 million Americans will vote for a traitor. What gives?
It is the same damn thing with Mark Robinson in North Carolina. In March of 2020 he states that America was absolutely a better country when women did not have the vote.
He goes on to win with 2,860,000 votes — half of them from women. Really? What gives?
I admire David Frum but I have to disagree this time. I understand his argument and in a normal world Joe not debating would be the right call... whatever the tv executives are thinking is irrelevant. Joe didn't really win by that much in the swing states last time . It looks like they are behind the psychopath again.. I hope he can debate the lunatic and that the voters will see just how unhinged he is. SCOTUS said Colorado had to put Trump on the ballot. They are holding up the insurrection trial The federal judge in Florida is in the bag for Trump.. The documents case has the most clear and convincing evidence..She is dragging her feet on purpose. I say all this to day Joe refusing to debate him would look weak ...From the other sides point of view Trump is being picked on... I hope Joe can wipe up the floor with him so to speak. No matter how things look the right continues to paint a picture of a man who is being persecuted.. All the gop leaders at the trial...no sadly he has to debate him. I don't care who is right in this discussion I just want Joe to win.
I hope President Biden plays with TFG’s head. I love it that the microphones will be cut to allow each candidate to have fair time. Biden is witty and can toy with a humorless Trump.
Managing expectations. The Trump cult that listens only to Fox and other right-wing media thinks that Biden can't put two sentences together. Those that lean toward Trump think the same thing. They will see that's dead wrong. So they may be disappointed in Trump's failure to clean Biden's clock.
On the other hand, Democrats should not hype the debate as one in which Biden will clearly clean Trump's clock rhetorically. Trump might have the capacity to change his crazy act, to suddenly look "reasonable," not too aggressive. In that case, he wins the expectations game.
Biden needs to be prepared for whichever Trump comes on the stage, a mud wrestler or a "mature statesman." Videos of Trump on YouTube from 20 years ago or longer suggested that he used to be relatively reasonable and sane. I just don't know if he still has a modicum of sanity in him. I have read that his extreme public persona is just an act.
Many doctors have analyzed trump’s behavior and have come to a common conclusion that he has dementia. One does not know what to expect from him, if he shows up. I’m confident about President Biden as he still has his senses about him and with a whole lot of years experience to draw from. And he’s witty!
I think Trump is losing his shit a little more on the daily. There is no way he can rein himself in, which is why he likely refused the primary debates. And Trump is going to be STOKED!! He is going to spew ALL the hate.
Intetesting, I see a very similar Trump now as 20 years ago, just in a slicker package. In a vacuum, I agree with Mr. Frum's argument, but we don't have the luxury of putting everything else aside, so President Biden was forced to make the offer. I agree with your caveats about extreme and confident expectations of either man. Both are weak and high risk, but only one is crazy and ruthless. I do see hints that Trump's fan club is setting the stage for a possible withdrawal from rigged debates designed as a set-up. One thing we know for sure is that, if held, calling these "debates" will be a misnomer.
All candidates debate. They need to make sure timing is strictly controlled. Trump has a tendency to ramble on and never give others time. Just my opinion, but I dislike articles behind paywall.
I totally agree! As a point of reality: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. As a point of campaign positioning: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. As a primary marketing message: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. Why is it that Nike can get into everyone's head with "Just Do It," but the Biden team cannot seem to grasp that their fundamental message should be: "I don't care what you think about me, this guy tried to hijack the election and the country and he's still at it."
Trump could babble incoherently, while foaming at the mouth, and the MAGAverse would say he was rabidly strong. Meanwhile, if Biden stammers once, or misspeaks a few times, he will be labeled feeble and senile, and the lame Dems won't know how to defend him. That is the risk.
Not a mistake, it's a necessity. Biden can't play by the old rules here, as much as he and David Frum might like to. It's akin to the British Redcoats fighting in rows out in the open while the American militias hid behind trees and fired back. The British refused to adapt to an enemy that didn't play by their rules. Biden needs to look strong, decisive and stick the landing. If he doesn't, he'll suffer the same fate as those Redcoats.
This was an Interesting conversation at lunch today with my BFF. Where we both agree that TFG is a despicable human being, it’s striking what his psychopathy has done to what should be an American protocol for President. People cannot tolerate the fear TFG inflicts upon the electoral. For me, all the more reason Biden shows the country that he truly is the only man in politics right now that can beat Trump this November. America needs to be brought back from the brink of this mass mental illness and get into action to save this country without firing a weapon at another human being. Only America can we pull this off together. United we Stand One Nation Under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice For All!
One questions that must be asked at the debate…Trump offered the CEOs of the oil companies that they can have any deregulation of their industry for a billion dollars. One… who gets that one? Two…who will pay for the health problems deregulation will cause? Three… does he plan to solicit bribes from other industries and or governments?
I am with Frum on this one. Biden's ego made this decision. He is the only person in the country who wanted a Biden/trump rematch besides trump. The only way this even marginally helps Biden is if trump doesn't show up.
Better use of his (and our) time would be to go meet with students at several of the various college campuses to have a sit down and listen. Make sure to take Jill with him. Also make sure the cabinet members who have resigned in protest are also there.
Wish I could meet most of you -- great thoughts here.
Lawrence O'Donnell has no peers for moderator (for anything, actually!) and he can handily deal with being neutral. Aside from Stormy herself, NO female should be the moderator here.
Lawrence could also ensure Trump's suffering for the entire time leading up to the debate. Delicious!
Biden needs to come out swinging and land his punches. This won’t be a debate. It is ignorant to even expect anything remotely close to this being a debate. I don’t care what kinds of stipulations are made. This will be a full on verbal assault and if the Dems don’t prep Biden to pound Trump verbally with every response, then I give fucking up.
No it is not a mistake. Taking charge. It's exactly what I expected from him.
The massive goals and accomplishments of this man is mind boggling. This year alone hit with major hurdles; Israel attacks, Gaza famine, protests by US students. The Hur investigation, border disaster, yet we learn the best deal ever between the GOP & Dems on immigration reform before Trump put an end to it. So close !! Knocks the SOTU out of the park. Hunter investigation. Biden impeachment threat. Natural disasters, more mass shootings. Trying to reign in Netanyahu. He keeps moving forward. Keeping the world united with another Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan by negotiating with the most dysfunctional GOP in our lifetime. More workers voting for unions and the stock market hits 40K. And he is campaigning in his "spare time".
Recent polls show him down & when asked he tells reporters he does not believe that. He is in denial? This 81 year old man has heard it all at this stage of his life, knowing this is it for him and maybe for our democracy, given his massive accomplishments. And he's going to share what he really knows or thinks about the polls with a reporter? Especially after spending months seeing media talk or write about his age. Someone mentioned the # of articles on this in the NYT alone - I don't remember the #, but it's on the record now, that it is not just Habberman in the pipeline for Trump stories. Best news ever is Biden did not give reporters any idea of what he thinks any poll reports. Just the facts of date, time place for the debates.
Time to give President Biden & his team our total support. I suspect he has major debate prep team in place or soon will be. It's all hands on deck and the Commander in Chief needs our support. He knows what needs to be done, has already accomplished enough to last a lifetime and he is not done. Remember a lot of folks were wringing their hands on how he would do in the SOTU.
I agree with Frum but it is what it is and it's necessary for the public to see how great Biden is compared to Trump. Maybe their denial should be reckoned with at last.
Mostly all Trump can do is interrupt, insult and change the subject so this darn well should be very strictly moderated so the issues can actually be discussed. And the mic should be cut when a loudmouth is interrupting, insulting, changing the subject, or exceeding his time limit. No exceptions!
The way the debate will go will depend on how the debate is handled. It was wise for the Biden crew to stipulate control of interuptions and other controls that set paced interactions. In the debate with Trump and Hillary, Trump was allowed to swagger about the stage, interrupting, making faces, making theatre of the debate. In the last efforts made by Hillary, Trump was standing directly behind her in full view, and I realized watching that my attention was riveted on Trump the whole time. The onus of this trivializing of a really sacred and time honored institution rested completely on the failure by the moderator to do his job. In all debates, rules of conduct are sternly stated, and no tolerance is given to not honoring completely the rules laid out. The moderator tried but weakly, then just whimpered out. Taking such dishonorable control was started earlier by Geo W in his presidential debate, when asked a pertinent question by the moderator, W ignored the question completely, snatched the mike from the stand, and wandered about the stage making what was clearly a pre-scripted speech. The moderator here too whimpered and caved. Sabotaging debates is apparantly a Republican plot, probably because they fear losing in legitimate debate. Think how restorative to public political moral it would be if America witnessed a debate where the king in a debate was the moderator of the debate, which is how it should be, which is how it historically has always been.
If President Biden refuses to debate Trump, no matter how legitimate his reasons, and no matter how well he states those reasons, voters will assume he is afraid to debate. This will help Trump and the Trumpists get away with their smears. I understand Frum's argument that Trump doesn't deserve the honor of a debate, and that much of the media will play a stupid and stupefying role if and when the debates take place, but based on Biden's performance as president and upon his recent State of the Union address, I think the debate will provide him with an absolutely necessary opportunity to demonstrate on live television that he has a positive vision for the country, and is mentally and physically fit to govern, while Trump HAS NOT and IS NOT.
Yes, and this is why Biden challenged TFG to these debates. Biden will hammer Trump on live tv.
Would it help, instead of calling it a debate, (with its historical context,) we called it a "duel?"
Thank you. None of the "debates" are any more. And duel may even be more polite if it were like days of old w/ rules. This spectacle will be terrifying to watch. I think I'll skip it just as I will election night and the many weeks after of calls of voter fraud.
Yes—let's call it a duel, David, and let's hope Biden eats his spinich!
I agree with Mary Bullington 100%. As long as the debate rules include shutting off the mike of all participants when it's not their turn to speak or when they exceed the time allotted to speak. No audience in attendance for Trump to demagogue. And a strong moderator. My vote is for Lawrence O'Donnell. As much as he dislikes Trump, Lawrence is always in control and would be a fantastic and fair debate moderator.
Yes. President Biden will blow TFG away for the entire country to watch. Millions need to see this.
Dark Brandon is already at work saying he thinks TFG may have Wednesdays available.
lol
I trust you Lisa
“The networks want their show, but to give the challenger equal status on a TV stage would be a dire normalization of his attempted coup.” —David Frum
I beg to differ. The MSM and the Republican Party has normalized his attempted coup, stealing of top secret documents, while downplaying his illegal activities; giving respectability to the MAGA CULT, Fascism, and the white nationalist agenda.
So sorry David, that ship has sailed. It’s best to engage, and let Trump make an ass out of himself in front of 25 million people. It’s a risk for Biden, but one he must take if he is to prevail in November. And should Biden have refused to debate, one can only imagine the wild conspiracy theories that would metastasize. Biden is brain dead and Kamala is in charge. It wasn’t Clinton who killed Seth Rich, it was a coked up Hunter Biden, etc…
The fake internet news stories will be endless. iMHO…:)
Right On, Robert!!
Amen!
Agreed 💯
He has to because Chump and crew will get unlimited mileage out of Biden not debating. The G.O.P (Ghastly Old Party) wants to nominate this buffoon, so you do what you have to.
Biden is a statesman ,Trump is a babbling idiot and that will become clear to all during this first debate ,he will not have the deplorables to cheer him on he will be held to the rules of the debate
if the debate is in the 8-9 pm hour ,sundowner syndrome will be apparent and if medicated it will increase his very obvious aphasia
Go dark Brandon wipe the floor with trump
"Go dark Brandon wipe the floor with trump" You bet!!
Either way people will criticize Biden, but I have to support him in his decision to debate the fool. Sure it gives credence to the chump and may normalize his attempted coup. Biden has some zingers he's been storing up just in case the blithering trump forgets whose the boss. The magadonias have already made their minds up, so yes, just going to be a show.
Debate only if the moderator is sharp, able to control Trump's blathering on and on, AND IF THERE A MUTE BUTTON!
It's a risk for Biden to debate Trump. But given how horribly Trump behaved in the 2020 debate, like a madman, constantly interrupting, I think he really discredited himself. His aggressiveness was I suppose designed to confuse Biden.. It did not. It made Trump look completely unhinged. Given that Biden won 6 million more votes than Trump in 2020, I surmise that the American people agreed. If Biden has slowed cognitively substantially, that might be revealed. But I still think that he will come off far saner than Trump.
Biden will have to say that Trump uses projection, and any accusation Trump uses is about himself, and say it about as calmly as one can - with pity. America is greater now than with Trump.
Biden can keep control of the military for 6 months after the election.
Control of the military for 6 months post election? I did not know this and if the election is lost to the Republicans we will need protection from the dictators and authoritarian rule that has been promised by them.
Trump says he will use the military to control the people that aren't loyal to Trump. That might mean against Americans like me. Six months would be a cooling down period, so maybe day one won't be too much of a shock. The 2025 group is very organized, and I believe they will be vicious in imposing their will.
Agreed. That’s why our unity is essential.
You are right on target.
Trump look unhinged? He is unhinged! It describes him perfectly.
This race shouldn't be close, but too many voters suffer from "Both Sides" mentality. They need to see both candidates side-by-side. Joe Biden needs to bring his SOTU game and expose the adjudicated rapist Trump as the seditious, Putin-loving, white supremacist, grifting kleptocrat that he is.
Frum does have a point. Biden should not give wanna be dictator Trump legitimacy by shaking his hand.
I wish President Biden well. However, I think it is a huge mistake for the Presidency or a President to share the stage with a scumbag like trump.
I was unable to read the article, but I agree with the premise, that by debating Trump, Biden is normalizing insurrection.
(Hell, I STILL think Trump is disqualified to run for president under 14.3 of our constitution. I don't let go of things easily I suppose.)
However, if Biden were to take that position and not debate Trump, he would be seen as a coward.
If Trump is the candidate for president - it disgusts to say so - then Biden should debate him.
Mr Biden gave a great State of the Union. Time to give a great debate performance. Hopefully the petulant and incorrigible behavior of Trump can be minimized but the rules and the moderator.
And hopefully the price of gas, eggs, and houses will decrease by the election.
Trump was a fake president with not a modicum of intelligence, decency, or self control. Biden needs to merely stand there and breathe; the idiot will display what a complete fool he is as he rants on….
Trump is a cognitively impared traitor, and these debates are bound to be watched by millions. This will show what he’s really made of.
Not a mistake
I don’t agree with Frum. I think it’s time to put up or shut up for President Biden. If he’s got what it takes, he needs to show the country NOW! Biden’s decision to debate the pending First Felon is a good one.
Trump's followers will watch, thinking they will see Biden as a demented old man. The only way Biden can prove them wrong is to be there, next to Trump, showing the contrast in real time.
I believe Trump will back out of any and all debates. All he can do is sling mud, dirt, garbage, name call and be a clown. He has NO mind for facts, numbers, policies and governing!
I don’t think Biden could possibly prepare for the slime that Trump is going to throw at him—stuff about his personal and family life, stuff he won’t expect and he won’t react well because he’s a normal man unlike Trump
Joe needs to take a crash course in abnormal psychology. 😏
Biden has to do it. He MUST DEBATE. No matter what any rationale would possibly be, the public will believe Biden CANNOT debate because he is unable to handle it and therefore will lose votes he needs to win the election. If he keeps the pressure on and brings it to Trump on the daily, while Trump is sitting in the courtroom, when Trump stomps onto the debate stage, he will explode with all the shit we know he says every day.
15 million insane “military age men” crossing the border every 15 minutes!! From insane asylums!!
Executing the baby after birth!
And so much more!
And hopefully, he will glitch and short-circuit and treat everyone to a replay of “Reboooot GAHHH”. Replete with bulging eyes.
If Tapper asks about policy and internment camps and little items from the 2025 playlist, then the American public will have a glimpse of just WTF our lives will be like under Trump Version 2.
Biden has to debate. And he has to be well-prepped. And he needs to bring it.
I disagree with David Frum. Completely.
Right On, Julie!
I agree that Biden has to debate. But he won't release the audio or video of his Hur interviews, so how do you think his debating will go?
I think it will go great (see SOTU and WHCD). Why should he release the audio or video when he already released the transcript and Hur has been grilled by Comer Fudd and Gym Jordan? And WWTD (see What Would Trump Do?). Trump didn’t release the classified documents! No doubt he released them to Vlad and MBS. Biden loves this shit. And Trump has glitched and short-circuited MANY times over the last three months (see REBOOOT GAHH, buiging eyes). It will be great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGRxVITBGOA
Yeah, yeah. The Telegraph is just another echo chamber. This is Biden in a large crowd with Barack Obama commanding the attention. I can scour YouTube and find clips of REBOOOOT GAHHH and Trump drinking with both hands on the glass and shuffling down the ramp with a military escort and lurching forward in stance, et al. But here’s the thing. I’m voting for decency. And for democracy. And for compassion and empathy. And steadiness. And trying hard for the American public. I’m NOT voting for hate and revenge and cruelty and misogyny and xenophobia and fascism.
Well said!
I don't think you really know what you are voting for other than a feeling of some political cult fealty. You seem to be well captured by your media feed algorithms. You speak in rhetorical Democrat media talking points.
We have to stop meeting like this. I feel the exact same way about YOU. One talking point follows another. And it’s DEMOCRATIC. I get that you’re trying to insult me. I’m not going to comment back to you anymore. It’s a waste of time.
Just stop.
Here you go again ! Those audio or videos wouldn't make any difference. Just listening to DJT's latest rallye speeches will tell you who is competent.
Then why hide the audios and videos from the public? I do listen to the audios and videos of Trump's rallies because there is no abuse of power to prevent it. In terms of competency Joe Biden is identified by the leaders of his own party as being incompetent.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f--k things up" - Barack Obama
It is doubtful, given the clinical observations by experts and by those of us who have heard clips of trump speaking recently, that he is exhibiting rapid deterioration associated with signs of dementia. His lap dog surrogates cannot fill in for him, as they are now, skirting his gag order. He will most surely not appear for the debates.
TFG needs to talk about Hannibal Lecter like he did last weekend to let the entire world know how he deserves to be taken out in a straitjacket
Trump belongs in a nursing home where his fecal incontinence , as reported by reputable sources, can be managed.
Trump will back out.
It depends. If there are rules in place, and each has their time to talk with no interruptions, Biden will do great. But if it is like 2020, there's no way he can even make himself heard, let alone say anything of substance.
Biden’s campaign has stipulated that the other candidate’s mic be muted until his turn to speak and there will be no audience. Without the rich donors being there to jeer and cheer there will be no distractions and Trump won’t be able to interrupt Biden unless he’s literally screaming. If he does, Biden should walk off the stage.
Given the terms of the debate as outlined by Biden, I think it’s brilliant. No audience to feed TFG’s ego. BTW, TFG no longer stands for The Former Guy. It’s now The F***ing Grifter.
It’s early enough in the season to address any of Uncle Joe gaffs. I think Joe’s ready for him. And fence sitters may need a reminder of how awful TFG was and how scary the Project 2025 (or whatever it’s called) is. I think Trump is going to back out anyway.
I have a subscription to The Atlantic and I have read Frum’s other pieces. Technically he is correct. But it is a lawyerly response and just will not work as a way to convince the electorate. Given the way polling is going, there are a lot of voters who don’t care about anything Trump did in the past. It is sad, but true.
Yes. It is very sad and mind boggling.
The MAGA/foreign influence social media algorithms are out of control. We need LIVE debate.
Unfortunately, I couldn't read the article because there is a pay wall and I'm not a subscriber to Atlantic. I agree that Biden should debate, because he's good at it. We can't let TFG and the media (I'm looking at you NY Times) drive the narrative about Biden's age and mental acuity. Biden blew TFG away in 2020 because TFG couldn't shut his gob, talked over Biden, bullied and bloviated. He. Can't. Help. Himself. He will do it again! I'm glad Joe tossed down the gauntlet. How we'll see if the orange wuss will show up because he's gotten his feefees hurt about some of the rules.He wants a big audience filled with his fans so he can turn a serious debate into a rally.
I can't get past The Atlantic's paywall, but I doubt David Frum could persuade me that there is a downside. Anything can go wrong, of course, and people concerned about orthodoxy are bothered by the pre-nomination timing. But guess what? We're on a burning boat steaming toward hell, and these are very unorthodox times in which it's gonna take a lot more than a debate to "normalize" anything.
It was a really great piece. I didn’t experience a paywall. It is too bad you weren’t able to read it.
I've exceeded my free views, probably.
If one wants to go by the book, assume innocent until proven guilty. Biden has done wrong since year one. All intraparty challenges were squashed. He needs to do something to change the polls. The event could be a genuine shitshow, just like all the other Trump faux debates, town halls, and such. The moderators would need to strictly control the mics. They must have the power to cut each candidate off. They must be able to have real-time fact-checking. Biden cannot run this campaign from his basement again. But these moderators need to be seasoned and thorough in their abilities to management a shitshow.
Although I agree with some here that Trump is a traitor, we still have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that 70 million Americans will vote for a traitor. What gives?
It is the same damn thing with Mark Robinson in North Carolina. In March of 2020 he states that America was absolutely a better country when women did not have the vote.
He goes on to win with 2,860,000 votes — half of them from women. Really? What gives?
I admire David Frum but I have to disagree this time. I understand his argument and in a normal world Joe not debating would be the right call... whatever the tv executives are thinking is irrelevant. Joe didn't really win by that much in the swing states last time . It looks like they are behind the psychopath again.. I hope he can debate the lunatic and that the voters will see just how unhinged he is. SCOTUS said Colorado had to put Trump on the ballot. They are holding up the insurrection trial The federal judge in Florida is in the bag for Trump.. The documents case has the most clear and convincing evidence..She is dragging her feet on purpose. I say all this to day Joe refusing to debate him would look weak ...From the other sides point of view Trump is being picked on... I hope Joe can wipe up the floor with him so to speak. No matter how things look the right continues to paint a picture of a man who is being persecuted.. All the gop leaders at the trial...no sadly he has to debate him. I don't care who is right in this discussion I just want Joe to win.
I think it’s a good idea. The President and his team wouldn’t be doing it if there was a concern.
He will mop the floor with that mentally unstable individual 1. He will lie, stumble over words and generally show how unfit he is.
I think it's a fantastic idea to do it. I cannot improve on Rick Wilson's reasoning: https://therickwilson.substack.com/p/i-hear-youre-free-on-wednesdays
Ah, Rick Wilson has a pay wall too!
I hope President Biden plays with TFG’s head. I love it that the microphones will be cut to allow each candidate to have fair time. Biden is witty and can toy with a humorless Trump.
President Biden is light years ahead of TFG and will creatively set him up over and over again.
https://youtu.be/PQTcn5MyVSg?si=-JYPxzvYPgzlJmuv
Thank you for posting this -good news!
Managing expectations. The Trump cult that listens only to Fox and other right-wing media thinks that Biden can't put two sentences together. Those that lean toward Trump think the same thing. They will see that's dead wrong. So they may be disappointed in Trump's failure to clean Biden's clock.
On the other hand, Democrats should not hype the debate as one in which Biden will clearly clean Trump's clock rhetorically. Trump might have the capacity to change his crazy act, to suddenly look "reasonable," not too aggressive. In that case, he wins the expectations game.
Biden needs to be prepared for whichever Trump comes on the stage, a mud wrestler or a "mature statesman." Videos of Trump on YouTube from 20 years ago or longer suggested that he used to be relatively reasonable and sane. I just don't know if he still has a modicum of sanity in him. I have read that his extreme public persona is just an act.
Many doctors have analyzed trump’s behavior and have come to a common conclusion that he has dementia. One does not know what to expect from him, if he shows up. I’m confident about President Biden as he still has his senses about him and with a whole lot of years experience to draw from. And he’s witty!
I think Trump is losing his shit a little more on the daily. There is no way he can rein himself in, which is why he likely refused the primary debates. And Trump is going to be STOKED!! He is going to spew ALL the hate.
President Biden/ Dark Brandon will know just how to play this. TFG will show he is nuts.
I completely agree with you. 100%. Steve should have a watch party on his YouTube channel.
Intetesting, I see a very similar Trump now as 20 years ago, just in a slicker package. In a vacuum, I agree with Mr. Frum's argument, but we don't have the luxury of putting everything else aside, so President Biden was forced to make the offer. I agree with your caveats about extreme and confident expectations of either man. Both are weak and high risk, but only one is crazy and ruthless. I do see hints that Trump's fan club is setting the stage for a possible withdrawal from rigged debates designed as a set-up. One thing we know for sure is that, if held, calling these "debates" will be a misnomer.
All candidates debate. They need to make sure timing is strictly controlled. Trump has a tendency to ramble on and never give others time. Just my opinion, but I dislike articles behind paywall.
I totally agree! As a point of reality: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. As a point of campaign positioning: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. As a primary marketing message: Trump doesn't deserve to be on the stage. Why is it that Nike can get into everyone's head with "Just Do It," but the Biden team cannot seem to grasp that their fundamental message should be: "I don't care what you think about me, this guy tried to hijack the election and the country and he's still at it."
Trump could babble incoherently, while foaming at the mouth, and the MAGAverse would say he was rabidly strong. Meanwhile, if Biden stammers once, or misspeaks a few times, he will be labeled feeble and senile, and the lame Dems won't know how to defend him. That is the risk.
The fake president foaming at the mouth is incredibly realistic. Let the GOP dance; Biden is light years ahead of the lunatic.
Trump will never show up!
Not a mistake, it's a necessity. Biden can't play by the old rules here, as much as he and David Frum might like to. It's akin to the British Redcoats fighting in rows out in the open while the American militias hid behind trees and fired back. The British refused to adapt to an enemy that didn't play by their rules. Biden needs to look strong, decisive and stick the landing. If he doesn't, he'll suffer the same fate as those Redcoats.
This was an Interesting conversation at lunch today with my BFF. Where we both agree that TFG is a despicable human being, it’s striking what his psychopathy has done to what should be an American protocol for President. People cannot tolerate the fear TFG inflicts upon the electoral. For me, all the more reason Biden shows the country that he truly is the only man in politics right now that can beat Trump this November. America needs to be brought back from the brink of this mass mental illness and get into action to save this country without firing a weapon at another human being. Only America can we pull this off together. United we Stand One Nation Under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice For All!
One questions that must be asked at the debate…Trump offered the CEOs of the oil companies that they can have any deregulation of their industry for a billion dollars. One… who gets that one? Two…who will pay for the health problems deregulation will cause? Three… does he plan to solicit bribes from other industries and or governments?
I am with Frum on this one. Biden's ego made this decision. He is the only person in the country who wanted a Biden/trump rematch besides trump. The only way this even marginally helps Biden is if trump doesn't show up.
Better use of his (and our) time would be to go meet with students at several of the various college campuses to have a sit down and listen. Make sure to take Jill with him. Also make sure the cabinet members who have resigned in protest are also there.
He needs to do both. He needs to debate. And he needs to go to the campuses.
Wish I could meet most of you -- great thoughts here.
Lawrence O'Donnell has no peers for moderator (for anything, actually!) and he can handily deal with being neutral. Aside from Stormy herself, NO female should be the moderator here.
Lawrence could also ensure Trump's suffering for the entire time leading up to the debate. Delicious!
Janet Blomberg, Minneapolis
Biden needs to come out swinging and land his punches. This won’t be a debate. It is ignorant to even expect anything remotely close to this being a debate. I don’t care what kinds of stipulations are made. This will be a full on verbal assault and if the Dems don’t prep Biden to pound Trump verbally with every response, then I give fucking up.
No it is not a mistake. Taking charge. It's exactly what I expected from him.
The massive goals and accomplishments of this man is mind boggling. This year alone hit with major hurdles; Israel attacks, Gaza famine, protests by US students. The Hur investigation, border disaster, yet we learn the best deal ever between the GOP & Dems on immigration reform before Trump put an end to it. So close !! Knocks the SOTU out of the park. Hunter investigation. Biden impeachment threat. Natural disasters, more mass shootings. Trying to reign in Netanyahu. He keeps moving forward. Keeping the world united with another Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan by negotiating with the most dysfunctional GOP in our lifetime. More workers voting for unions and the stock market hits 40K. And he is campaigning in his "spare time".
Recent polls show him down & when asked he tells reporters he does not believe that. He is in denial? This 81 year old man has heard it all at this stage of his life, knowing this is it for him and maybe for our democracy, given his massive accomplishments. And he's going to share what he really knows or thinks about the polls with a reporter? Especially after spending months seeing media talk or write about his age. Someone mentioned the # of articles on this in the NYT alone - I don't remember the #, but it's on the record now, that it is not just Habberman in the pipeline for Trump stories. Best news ever is Biden did not give reporters any idea of what he thinks any poll reports. Just the facts of date, time place for the debates.
Time to give President Biden & his team our total support. I suspect he has major debate prep team in place or soon will be. It's all hands on deck and the Commander in Chief needs our support. He knows what needs to be done, has already accomplished enough to last a lifetime and he is not done. Remember a lot of folks were wringing their hands on how he would do in the SOTU.
A good opening statement by Biden is to attack trump as an insurrectionist and a criminal.
I agree with Frum but it is what it is and it's necessary for the public to see how great Biden is compared to Trump. Maybe their denial should be reckoned with at last.
Mostly all Trump can do is interrupt, insult and change the subject so this darn well should be very strictly moderated so the issues can actually be discussed. And the mic should be cut when a loudmouth is interrupting, insulting, changing the subject, or exceeding his time limit. No exceptions!
Agree. Of the debates I have seen, he interrupts constantly.
I see that Xi rolled out the red carpet for Putin. Add to that the MAGA Republicans and you have the Axis of Assholes.
The way the debate will go will depend on how the debate is handled. It was wise for the Biden crew to stipulate control of interuptions and other controls that set paced interactions. In the debate with Trump and Hillary, Trump was allowed to swagger about the stage, interrupting, making faces, making theatre of the debate. In the last efforts made by Hillary, Trump was standing directly behind her in full view, and I realized watching that my attention was riveted on Trump the whole time. The onus of this trivializing of a really sacred and time honored institution rested completely on the failure by the moderator to do his job. In all debates, rules of conduct are sternly stated, and no tolerance is given to not honoring completely the rules laid out. The moderator tried but weakly, then just whimpered out. Taking such dishonorable control was started earlier by Geo W in his presidential debate, when asked a pertinent question by the moderator, W ignored the question completely, snatched the mike from the stand, and wandered about the stage making what was clearly a pre-scripted speech. The moderator here too whimpered and caved. Sabotaging debates is apparantly a Republican plot, probably because they fear losing in legitimate debate. Think how restorative to public political moral it would be if America witnessed a debate where the king in a debate was the moderator of the debate, which is how it should be, which is how it historically has always been.